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Posted by By the Book on
2/24/2007, 10:24 pm, in reply to "Re:
To a retired zebra and FRIEND"
| Jensen,
I'll throw out a few of the classic
lines that should be part of the video. We can have a coach that offers the
following assistance to the ref during the course of the match:
a. "Watch the knee!!!" (when the
opponent is actually bending the knee in the direction God designed it to
bend)
b. "Let 'em wrestle!!!" (when their
guy is bending the opponent's knee in the same direction as the situation in
(a))
c. "What's the other guy doing???"
(right after you call their guy for stalling for backing up 3 straight times
when the opponent initiated 3 deep double leg shots from the feet)
d. "Come on ref, let the kids decide
it!!!" (after you ding their kid for crawling 5 feet straight out of bounds
in a tight match)
e. "You gotta stop that
situation!!!" (after you allowed the opponent to use the double bar arm to
complete the pin fall even though their kid yelled 5 different times "I
CAN'T BREATHE!!!" loud enough so the people at the concession stand in the
lobby could hear each time)
f. "How can you stop that? Come on,
it's just good hard wrestling!" (after his kid throws a wicked cross-face
that started about 5 feet away from the opponent's face and breaks the
opponent's nose)
g. "Where's the imminent near fall?"
(after you stop action for bleeding on the bottom guy who was on all fours
with the opponent using a tight waist and ankle)
h. "The top man's got to come out to
the side!" (even though he's wrestling a stud who cannot be broken down or
held down easily)
OK, I'll stop now.......
|
Additional references
which permit coach conferences for any reason
Posted by By the Book on 2/6/2007,
10:45 pm, in reply to "to
By the Book"
| Rasslinref,
Here are the additional sources which
permit the coach to request a conference for any reason he wishes.
Rule 6-6-6, page 33:
"When a coach believes the referee
has misapplied
a rule or disagrees with judgment, the coach may approach the scorer's
table, request the match be stopped (when there is no significant action)
and discuss the matter with the referee directly in front of the scorer's
table."
Case Manual situation 6.6.6C:
"COMMENT: This rule does allow a
coach to approach the scorer's table to discuss any matter with the referee.
The coach may even discuss disagreement with a judgment call..."
Case Manual Section 12 - Coaching,
page 83:
"Any time a coach approaches the
scorer's table requesting the match be stopped, the referee must recognize
this at the first opportune moment. The referee is not to make a decision
concerning the situation without first visiting with the coach. If there is
no error, or if the coach disagrees with the referee's judgment, the coach
will be penalized for coach misconduct." |
You don't understand the
purpose of the rule
Posted by By the Book on 2/6/2007,
11:21 pm, in reply to "Re:
Coach is entitled to question judgment for a Misconduct warning"
| I don't think you understand this
rule very well. This rule is in place to allow coaches an avenue for
discussing potential errors by the official in either rule
application/interpretation or in judgment.
But if you think it would serve the
sport well to allow the coach unlimited conferences without any consequence,
then you fail to understand the rationale for this rule. I'll share an
example from a Regional Tournament I worked 3 years ago to illustrate the
point:
I called a Technical Violation (TV)
on GREEN for failing to remain inbounds. The coach disagreed and wanted to
discuss it. I asked him if he wanted a conference. He wouldn't answer -
instead he kept asking how it was a TV against his kid. Again, I asked him
if he wanted a conference and he finally says "Yes." I tell the wrestlers to
remain in the center circle and I go to the table to listen to the coach.
After he goes on for 15 seconds, I explain that GREEN failed to make every
effort to remain inbounds and that's why he earned a TV. I then issue the
warning for Coaches Misconduct. At that point, the coach asks why and says
"I didn't say anything out of line and it only took 30 seconds." I told him
I'd explain after the match ended. So, afterward, I ask him, "During those
30 seconds, how many points were scored? How many aggressive moves were
initiated? Was the conditioning of the superior wrestler rewarded?" Answers
- Zero, None, No.
Now, imagine if the coach was
allowed to interupt the match for 20 - 60 seconds at a time, multiple times
in a single match, without any consequence. And then add in the risk that
the other coach could do the same thing. Matches could take forever to
complete. And everyone watching would wonder if the referee was competent
and whether he could control a match.
So, to strike a balance, the NFHS
allows up to 3 fruitless conferences before the coach is ejected. They
aren't shut off completely from having this avenue of redress. Then again,
they also can't exercise it without limit. I think it is fair, especially
considering how frequently the coaches just want to discuss pure judgment or
how incomplete some coach's knowledge of the rules is. |
Heel2toe
Posted by rasslinref on 2/6/2007, 7:58 pm, in reply to "Re:
to spslfan"
| When was the last time you saw a
referee say a pig could fly??? I'm sure it must have happened or you
wouldn't have brought it up.
I have an idea... any time a coach
doesn't agree with a call, we should call both coaches to the bench and come
to a gentleman's agreement on how it should go. I'm sure both coaches will
see it the same way as only the referee will be wrong. Am I sarcastic?? You
bet!
Have you ever heard one side of a
gym cheer while the other side boooooed??? Maybe all people don't see things
the same way. And like it or not, there's only one person who has the
position of having the final say, right or wrong, and that's the referee.
And believe it or not, all the referees I know, try their best to make the
right calls. Live with it! |
Re: Coaches may call a
conference for ANY REASON IN THE WORLD
Posted by By the Book on 2/6/2007,
10:46 am, in reply to "Re:
Coaches may call a conference for ANY REASON IN THE WORLD"
| A conference occurs when the
official calls a timeout to meet with the coach in front of the scorer's
table. If the coach simply asks a clarifying question, then the official can
simply respond without taking a timeout and without disrupting the flow of
the match. Examples of clarifying questions that don't require a conference:
- Was that a 2 point or 3 point near
fall?
- Isn't that the second stalling call?
- Did you award near fall + a takedown?.
My technique for these types of
questions is to simply answer them as I'm walking back to the center of the
mat to get the wrestlers in their starting positions, thus there is no
interuption in the match.
If the question is not about my
call, but regarding the logistics of the match, then that is not a
conference either. For example, if the coach is concerned that the clock was
still running after I blew the whistle for out of bounds. Or, if the coach
is wondering if the scorekeeper captured all of the points I signaled. In
these types of situations, if I believe there is a legitimate concern, I
will take my own timeout to check with the table, review the scorebook, etc.
I always make it very clear when a
conference is taking place. I always ask the coach "Are you requesting a
conference?" If he says yes, then I tell the wrestlers to stay in the 10
foot circle or I will penalize them. Then I go to the scorer's table and
meet with the coach.
And remember, there is no provision
in the rules for a coach to be warned for misconduct without a conference
taking place. So, an official should not ever turn to the corner and tell a
coach "That's a warning" when the coach has not requested a conference. If
the official feels the coach has done something unsportsmanlike, then he
should penalize him for it and there is no warning for unsportsmanlike
conduct penalties. If the official doesn't feel the coach has crossed the
line for unsportsmanlike conduct but is getting close, it is OK to verbally
remind him to adhere to the Coaches Code of Ethics or to refrain from going
further with his words/actions into the realm of unsportsmanlike conduct -
but there is no official "warning" associated with this reminder.
|
Coaches may call a
conference for ANY REASON IN THE WORLD
Posted by By the Book on 2/6/2007,
10:01 am, in reply to "Re:
Coach is entitled to question judgment for a Misconduct warning"
| Just so folks are very clear, a
coach is entitled to call a conference for any reason in the world. He can
request a conference just to question judgment. He can request one to seek
an explanation for a call. He can request one simply to ask about the
weather forecast. There is no distinction between a "legit" conference vs a
"bogus" one - if he wants a conference, the official needs to grant him an
audience when there is a break in the action.
The Coaches Misconduct rule is in place
to allow coaches an avenue for correcting perceived wrongs. The coach may
not always be right, but he is entitled to the conference. And when the
conference is over, one of two things will occur:
1) A correction will be made by the
official. This could mean adjusting the score, reseting the clock, changing
a ruling that had been previously applied incorrectly, etc. No Misconduct
Warning is given when a correction results from the conference.
2) The coach will receive a
Misconduct warning if no correction results from the conference. So, if the
coach asks for a conference to disagree with a judgment call, a Misconduct
will ensue. If the coach asks for a conference after the official applied
the rules/interpretations correctly, a Misconduct will occur. If the coach
calls a conference to complain that the Bears didn't win the Super Bowl, he
will receive a Misconduct. The sequence for Misconduct goes like this -
first offense is a warning, second offense is -1 Team Point, third offense
is -2 more Team Points and ejecting the head coach.
Unsportsmanlike Conduct can also
occur in conjunction with Misconduct. These are two separate items. The fact
that a coach is nice and calm and respectful during a conference that yields
no correction will still be warned for Misconduct. If the coach has a
conference that yields no correction and acts in an unsportsmanlike fashion,
then he will receive a Misconduct warning + an Unsportsmanlike Conduct
penalty (-1 Team Point).
The Misconduct penalty is in place
to prevent frequent, needless interuptions in the match. When a conference
takes place, no scoring can occur, no aggressive wrestling action can take
place, wrestlers get to rest and possibly get cold. That is why the choice
of a coach to request a conference must carry some type of consequence, and
why a coach is limited to a maximum of 3 fruitless conferences in a day.
And, it's also why a conference that results in a correction receives no
penalty. There is no such thing as a "free" conference - the choice by a
coach to call a conference means he accepts the potential consequence
associated with that conference. So, if he doesn't want to be warned or
penalized, he better be sure that he is bringing the official over to make a
correction.
All Misconduct penalties go against
the head coach. If the assistant coach requests 3 fruitless conferences,
then he will remain at the event while his head coach gets ejected. Or, if
the head coach has a fruitless conference on one mat at the tournament while
his assistant is doing the same thing on a different mat while the teammate
in the corner is doing the same thing on a third mat, the head coach will be
ejected.
Conferences are a valid tool for all
coaches to have. And it may be worth a warning or even a penalty to make a
point with an official the coach may have a serious disagreement with (e.g.,
he's worried that the official's judgment on potentially dangerous holds
poses a risk to his wrestlers). |
Some thoughts from one
official
Posted by By the Book on
1/25/2007, 12:21 pm, in reply to "question
on stalling"
| I'll offer some thoughts from one
official. Be aware that there are fewer "absolutes" in stalling situations
than one might hope. 1)
Repeated backing up in the neutral position, without any attempt to initiate
a takedown is a pretty strong indicator of stalling. The only mitigating
factor would be if the opponent is just pushing him toward the boundary
line, and ultimately, out of bounds. There can sometimes be situations where
the opponent has superior strength and is able to push the other wrestler
across the mat with the tie up applied.
2) When we talk about riding
"parallel", we need to make a very important distinction - is the defensive
wrestler broken down or is he on his base? Once broken down, then the
offensive wrestler needs to initiate a pinning hold and work to improve his
position. However, when the defensive wrestler comes back up to his base,
then the offensive wrestler may return behind the hips and work to break him
down again. I often hear people yelling about the top guy "riding parallel"
when he is busy trying, but not succeeding, to break his opponent down. The
top man is not required to "come out to the side" before the bottom man is
broken down any more than the bottom man would be required to put his head
down and raise up his arm so the top guy could insert a half nelson. Once
broken down, then there is more onus on the top man to demonstrate he is
working on improving position. Simply riding parallel at that point will be
considered stalling. But don't forget, the bottom man must also be working
to improve position - he cannot simply lie on the mat with his hips down, or
just sit on all fours like a table without initiating some type of
escape/reversal manuever.
3) The bottom man crawling out of
bounds would not be considered stalling. It would be evaluated for the
possibility of a technical violation (TV) penalty for "failing to make every
effort to remain inbounds". The reason this TV exists is to discourage
wrestlers from using the out of bounds to eliminate potential scoring that
the aggressive wrestler may legitimately have earned. Wrestlers are expected
to remain inbounds - even at the risk of being scored upon. We give leeway
to wrestlers that end up out of bounds because they couldn't see where they
were on the mat (e.g., scramble situation) or where the natural momentum
carries them out. Otherwise, the rule is in place because they are expected
to stay in bounds so aggressive wrestling is rewarded appropriately.
|
Definition of an escape
= Neutral + Loss of Control + Beyond Reaction Time
Posted by By the Book on
1/16/2007, 10:45 am, in reply to "Personal
request for By the book, rasslinref, B&W and Jensen to comment"
| First, let me clarify the rule and
the definition of an escape from the Rule Book:
Rule 5-10: An escape is when the
defensive wrestler gains a neutral position and the opponent has lost
control beyond reaction time, while the supporting points of either wrestler
are inbounds.
For the situation described in this
post, it sounds like there was no escape. If the defensive wrestler is able
to come to his feet, face the opponent, and that offensive wrestler
immediately drops down to the legs, then we probably have not achieved
"neutral" position and we have not achieved "beyond reaction time".
My personal opinion is that too many
officials give away escape points too easily. I have coaches all the time
that are asking "Wasn't there loss of control?". Sometimes my answer is
"Maybe. But he never achieved a neutral position. No escape." And then the
coach is stunned, thinking I've cheated their kid out of 1 point. Why does
the coach ask for this? Because he must have seen his kids rewarded all too
frequently for actions that do not fulfill the definition of an escape. I
had a coach request a conference the other night because I didn't award an
escape to his wrestler. After listening to his inquiry ("Why no escape?"), I
told him the definition of escape from the Rule Book. He said, "I'd like to
see that in the book." And I said, "Certainly, I'll show you after the
meet." And afterward, I indeed showed him and he learned something he
previously didn't know.
My approach is this:
Loss of control - we can all
generally see this fairly clearly.
Neutral - keep in mind the following
principle, that the wrestlers remain in the positions they started in until
the official signals a change in control. In other words, at the start of
the match, they remain in neutral until I award a takedown. When they start
on the mat, the offensive wrestler remains in the control position until I
either award an escape or a reversal. You will often see officials with the
arm extended with a particular color (Red or Green) as a visible sign to
everyone of who remains in control, especially in the scramble situations.
Next, my test for when a wrestler has achieved a neutral position is this -
if I told the wrestler to move to a position 10 feet away on the mat, could
he get there in a second or two. If yes, then he has probably achieved a
neutral position. If no, then the top guy retains restraining power over the
bottom man and you'll see my extended arm visually indicating that the top
guy is still in control.
Beyond reaction time - the wrestler
has to have enough time to establish his position. Turning and facing alone
is not sufficient, if the top guy is right in on a tight bear hug within an
instant or if he has a deep double leg shot dumping the opponent to his
butt. When action goes out of bounds or the period ends, then we may have to
make the call without the benefit of "reaction time".
Another thing to keep in mind is
that "control" means that the wrestler in the advantage position (the
offensive/top wrestler) has restraining power over the opponent. By
implication, he remains in control until the official awards a change of
control. And that change of control will not be awarded until the defensive
wrestler has proven that the top guy no longer has restraining power. So,
some extreme examples:
a) Top guy uses optional starting
position, immediately releases the opponent and takes 2 steps back. Until
that bottom man turns and faces (or the top guy goes around in front), the
bottom man has not proven that the offensive guy cannot restrain him, even
though he isn't even holding onto him. The bottom man has not proven that he
can defend himself from the top man quickly reestablishing a hold and
restraining power over him.
b) Bottom man stands up and breaks
the hands and takes one step away from the top guy. His back is still facing
the top guy as they go out of bounds. No escape because until that bottom
man faces and proves the top guy cannot restrain him, we still have the top
guy in control. Why, because the top guy is in position to quickly follow up
and reestablish his hold on the bottom guy and physically restrain/control
him.
OK, so that's probably enough from
me. If other officials have some thoughts to share, I think this is a great
time to post something. |
There are 2 official
cases to cover these
Posted by By the Book on
1/16/2007, 1:13 pm, in reply to "Re:
Definition of an escape = Neutral + Loss of Control + Beyond Reaction Time"
| There are actually 2 specific
situations described in the NFHS Case Manual that address times when an
escape will be awarded when we don't have neutral + loss of control + beyond
reaction time. 1) A reversal
that is completed out of bounds.
2) Wrestlers on their feet,
defensive wrestler controlling one leg of the offensive wrestler (e.g., has
the leg off the ground with a single leg takedown manuever), and the action
is stopped (due to time expires, wrestlers going out of bounds, wrestler
committing a violation).
In both of the these exceptions, the
NFHS is basically rewarding the defensive wrestler's aggressiveness and
recognizing that the defensive wrestler could have been neutral at any
moment of his choosing (if he hadn't instead chosen to pursue the reversal).
In situation 1, we have the defensive guy ending up in control, on top, out
of bounds. Theoretically, if he had not continued the move to its
conclusion, he could have chosen instead to break apart and be neutral and
remain in bounds. In situation 2, the defensive guy had the option at any
moment to release that leg and then they definitely would have been in a
neutral position.
So, what you've seen in the stands
probably is consistent with these two specific exceptions. |

Re: over time
Posted by Overtime on 1/15/2007, 11:20 am, in reply to "over
time"
1st: Sudden Victory (1-min. on
feet)
2nd: TWO- 30 second periods (2 x 0:30 sec. on mat)
3rd: Ultimate Victory (0:30 sec. on feet)
Section 7 Overtime
Art. 1....When the constestants are tied at the end of the three regular
periods, they will wrestle overtime. Overtime will consist of a one
minute sudden victory period, and if needed two 30-second tiebreakers.
If the score remains tied at the end of the two 30-second tiebreakers, a
30 second ultimate tiebreaker shall take place.
The procedure will be:
a. no rest between the regulation match and sudden victory;
b. wrestlers in the neutral
posistion;
c. the wrestler who scores the first
point(s) will be declared the winner; if no winner is declared by the end of
the sudden victory, then the following procedure will be used;
1. two 30 seconds tiebreakers will
be wrestled to completion and score kept as in the regular match;
2. the referee shall flip a disk to
determine which wrestler has the choice of the starting position for the
firest tiebreaker;
3. the wrestler who has choice in
the first tiebreaker may select top, bottom or defer the choice to the
opponent;
4. at the conclusion of the first
30-second tiebreaker, the opponent will have the choice of positions as
stated in 3;
5. Whichever wrestler has scored the
most points in the two 30-second tiebreakers will be declared the winner;
6. if the score is tied at the end
of the two 30-second tiebreakers, the choice of positioin for the ultimate
tiebreaker will be granted to the wrestler who scored the first point(s) in
the regulation match; if no points are scored in the regulation match, a
flip of the disk shall determine the wrestler who has the choice (points for
double-stalling or simultaneous penalties shall be considered as no points
for the purpose of the tiebreaker choice);
7. the wrestler who has choice may
select top, bottom or defer the choice to the opponent;
8. the wrestler who scores the first
point(s) during the ultimate tiebreaker will be declared the winner. If no
scoring occurs during the unltimate tiebreaker, the offensive wrestler will
be declared the winner and the match point shall be added to the offensive
wrestler's score.
d. a fall terminates any overtime
period. |
Re: Coaches vs.
officials
Posted by Tikam on 12/21/2006, 8:28 am, in reply to "Re:
Coaches vs. officials"
| Yes, the best matches are the ones
where the ref does not get noticed. Anytime there is a close edge of the mat
call or loss of control issue when time expires, a ref will get noticed
because one coach will not like the judgement of the ref making the call.
Here is a little post I read a few years ago which is a fun read. ""I was a
pretty rabid official-abuser while my son was wrestling...it seemed to me
that most, if not all, officials stunk. I did what several of the posters
suggest, as soon as he was finished wrestling I paid my $30, took the test,
bought some striped polyester and went out to show the bums how to do it
right. I immediately -- and I mean immediately -- realized that I was over
my head and that calling a match from the stands was 10 times easier than
calling it on the mat. I never missed a call while I was in the stands and
could see everything (or so I thought). Those first couple of years were
terrible and I realized that those officials who had put up with my abuse
were pretty darn good officials, some great ones, and almost all of them
were "good guys" with their hearts in the right place. And of course, over
the years, those that have remained steadfast in the calling have become my
friends. So when someone gets on my case and tells me to "go back to foot
locker," I can smile about it because I think yeah, that's just payback for
all the grief I handed out when I was in the cheap seats. And of course, I
know none of its true."" |
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